Giles: What Have the Red Shirts Achieved?

For this reason it is probably more accurate to define the reds in terms of what they fight against (explicitly, at least) rather than what they stand for. The BBC, for example, calls the reds “anti-government protesters”. The MediaWar blog sees the reds as an “anti-establishment movement.” There is still a long way to go before they can truly be called pro-democracy.

Yes, I reluctantly agree as well. There was a film produced some years ago about the cycle of despotic regimes in one of the banana republics of central or South America – I can’t quite remember the name of it. The freedom fighters would wage war agains the government, and win, then become despotic in their turn in order to hold on to power, which would bring another bunch of freedom fighters who would win … and so on.

This is my main dismal fear about the reds, because at heart, Thailand is just another tin-pot banana republic, and I worry about the likes of Chalerm, Thaksin, Sudarat and some of the other irredeemably corrupt godfather figures who are waiting in the wings to profit from the work of the rural people they have likewise exploited and plundered.

I wish I could see an answer – it certainly isn’t Giles’ red-coloured glasses vision of the land, he is destined to be disappointed and he should know better because he is half-Thai.

Personally I echo someone else’s thoughts I saw recently, in that Thailand is still awaiting a charismatic figure to lead the nation into democracy and make fundamental changes to the endemic and omnipresent corruption that has always dragged the country down and in the absence of a seismic shift in the consciousness of the Thai, will continue to drag it down. A charismatic and honest person to lead enough honest and determined Thais to make a difference – a pipe dream I fear.

What may be needed to stop the corruption is an underground movement to start kidnapping corrupt officials, starting at the top of the tree and working down. Give them a bullet in the head at 2am and hang them from a lamp-pole with a notice around their neck saying “I stole from the Thai people I was employed to serve”. After the first few hundred, the others would probably get the message.

It would never work though, one of their number would sell them out for 30 pieces of silver. So back to the futility of it all.

“Having said that, I’m not sure I agree with your point on the need for Thailand to seek a charismatic figure to lead the revolution. That kind of view strikes me as scarily conservative – you know, it’s just another way of saying “ordinary people cannot be trusted” which happens to be the PAD’s official slogan or something close to it.”

It is difficult not to be seduced by the Thai notion of charisma equating to ‘barami’. Otherwise, I agree with you wholeheartedly given that single adjustment. Charisma is a personal attribute, not one bestowed by the ability to distribute patronage as ‘barami’ is. I too am horrified by the kind of people that Thais appear to look up to.

The person I fantasise would be an ordinary person, but possessed of extra-ordinary (for a Thai) clarity of thought, vision and integrity. Such a person would need to be an example others could follow that would be different to the examples already provided and followed. Such a person would need to have the common touch and be strong enough to both resist and strike down corruption.

Unfortunately, in my humble opinion, such a man (or woman) would be assassinated early as he began to interfere with established interests, hence my contemplation of a ‘Star Chamber’ approach, but of course a star chamber would be very likely to become simply another unaccountable group so safeguards would need to be established that would prevent the usual anarchical behaviour of Thais from making it into a vehicle for personal feuds and vengeance.

Gloomily perhaps, years of living in Thailand have convinced me that the rot in Thai society is so all-pervasive that 3 generations would be required to bring it into line with the kind of morality, social responsibility and ethical framework that you or I might recognise as such. 3 generations if it were done by consensus and design, however both concepts are foreign to Thais who tend to have a short span of attention, a disinterest in matters that do not directly and obviously effect them, and a pragmatism that negates all ethical and moral precepts. They are amoral and they have been trained and taught to be amoral by the propaganda machine which extols amoral behaviour and pretends it is something else.

So to achieve change requires, paradoxically, a group of very moral and upright people to behave outside of the bounds of that morality and uprightness. A star chamber backed by a network of loyal enactors. In short, it will require 10 years of people hanging from lamp-poles with notices around their necks.

I doubt anything else will work. Thailand is already ungovernable, it’s already a failed state.

[...] The end is near, or so we thought. Some commentators were already putting up their final red protest analysis – such as Prof. Federico Ferrara’s The End of the Beginning, or exiled Giles Ji Ungpakorn getting at the heart of what the reds may have achieved. [...]

I disagree with your comment that the reds could not be called pro-democracy.
I think people have different difinitions of what constitues democracy. Some like you, me and many orther ‘truly pro-democracy’ would certainly put liberal prejudices into the defition (that democracy means individual’s rights are respected – somethings Thaksin certainly had not done during his premiership)
But shouldn’t we accept that there exist other types(less sophiticated perhaps) of democracy as well. The one I think of is Majoritarian democracy (view of majority get implimented)
Surely, it’s better, even necessary that we should have liberal democracy instead of the majoritarian one. But I think it’s a bit unfair to say that what the reds are now doing (essentially, I think, is just demanding that the view of majority of Thais is respected) doesnot contribute anything to democratisation in our country.

Abhisit Vejjajiva is my hero. His was born and educated in UK. He his Eatonian, Oxford scholar, debate team leader, etc. He is a rich boy from a high class Thai family, I don’t know what’s he is doing in Thai politics (He doesn’t even know what a Thai basic needs are). He is definitely qualify to run for a UK post. If Thai people really need a good English speaker and foreign born for a leader then they should hire any white guy with good public speaking skill to run the country(its cheaper).

I hope he just leaves Thai people alone and go back to where he was born.

banglen: “If Thai people really need a good English speaker and foreign born for a leader then they should hire any white guy with good public speaking skill”

- except for being born to a rich Thai family, isn’t this what the Thai people are getting in Mark Yuan? He may not be Caucasian, but he looks like a model for skin-whitening products, and is a fine public speaker.

“Red “movement”, starting from old TRT days is a new phenomenon – the political elites using the power of modern marketing to galvanize masses for a self-serving cause.”

How is that a new phenomenon other than in the sense that the Reds are doing it Stan?

Thai governments and (…) have been doing it for decades, that, Olly, is how they got us all in this fine mess.

Note: Comment slightly edited

@someone
aggree that there haven’t been DIRECT democratic procedures in the process. But I doubt if there are realitic alternatives. Note that even cabinet still not asking populace every time they take action i.e no referendum on every issue. politicians often implement the policy with expectation that the policy will make them more popular. In an ideal world (populace has time to consider each issue thoroughly etc), that would be perfect. But in reality, it s not pratical. What I mean here is that the priciple remains: you do what most people want then you get support/rewards in the futere – reelection for pol. parties and more crownds, cheer in rally. Mop organisation is always much more difficult than admintrative bussiness of cabinet. So i think that the current decision-making process of the red leaders doesn’t really bypass necessary decomractic elements, given practicalities in reality. If what some people say is true – that red guards use some threat to force people to stay -, that would difinitely be undemocratic.

On the leaders’ badness ‘amartness’ I completely agree with you. But as lord Action said ‘Power tend to corrupt’, I m not sure that most people in that position could resist temptation to abuse power, currupt etc. Some might, but a lot more ll just pretend to be noble n force people to believe so.

I think the ordinary reds crowds are using the leaders as much as the leaders use the crowds. If those leaders incl. Thaky were to behave like amarts in the future, will the people put up to it. I don’t think so.